does anyone have any experiences and feedback for this?
↧
Question for enneagram: are type 4 and 6 ideal match types for each other?
↧
Nene Leakes
↧
↧
Which type is least likely to attract a dual?
I'd say male Fi-ESIs
↧
Type the song above you
↧
My comments to DCNH
My comments to DCNH
These are my comments on DCNH based on 8 years of observations. I am mainly including things that I have thought myself, but in some places I repeat what Gulenko says in his DCNH articles in order to give my comments.
Please remember:
-I am NOT an expert on the theory of DCNH. I just really, really like observing, for a looong time. I know that the theory works and that it is important.
-Some of the things I write might be badly formulated or hard to relate to. But I still want to pour it all out like a bucket of cold water, because maybe someone has had similar experiences. I don't even know how popular DCNH is in this forum right now.
- I didn't want to mention any main socionis typings, because it always leads to arguments with forum users. But I still had to mention a few.
What is DCNH?
DCNH is not just referring to shallow traits. "I am dominant person so I have to be the dominant subtype". Rather, DCNH refers to the phenomenon of immediate awareness. If we say that the main type function is on the "inside" of a person then DCNH is on the "outside".
DCNH is often easier to observe than the main type.
Benefits of DCNH
Basically 4 things imo:
- Fills a huge gap in the understanding of compatibility
- Makes typing easier.
- Better understanding of how humans are specialized
- Avoid common mistypings: H mistyped as IP main type, D mistyped as EJ main type etc.
On compatibility
DCNH is very important when choosing a partner. Most marriages are between D&N or H&C "Subtype duality". People just instinctively pick the best match.
Best matches: "subtype duality": D&N or H&C (as the theory says)
Also quite common: H&N or D&C or same subtype
Less common: D&H or C&N
DCNH is also sometimes the reason why we end up with the wrong partner. You might have the correct DCNH-compatibility with a person, but wrong main type combination. It can lead to attraction, and you start dating, but still something feels wrong (If your partner is your supervisor, for example). This becomes even more evident if you also have good enneagram-compatibility.
There is this classical question why charming and vibrant women chose boring men. Now we know, almost every time you see such couple it is a case of Dominant woman + Normalizing man. It can of course also be the other way around. :hello:
Subtype duality creates the feeling that the bond gets tighter when both are pulling in their own direction. The N doesn't have to be outgoing because the more intraverted he is, the more D will connect to him. On the other hand, the N stabelizes the D. The feeling can be compared to dancing.
Observing couples in real life is one of the best ways to learn DCNH. The fact that most married couples are DCNH-matches makes it easy to find a point of reference to start typing from. Most couples you see on the street are D+N.
DCNH is probably the reason for the saying "opposites attract", NOT the main socionics compatibility. That's because DCNH is easier to observe, even for those who know nothing about it.
If you want to use Socionics for match-making among friends you should also control the subtype so you can match D with N and H with C. It's simply a fact that these combination are the best. If you can't do that you could try matching N with H and D with C, or you could go for the same subtype, but you better avoid H&D and C&N.
How common are the subtypes?
D and N are the most common.
My estimation:
75% are D&N (rational subtypes)
25% are C&H (irrational subtypes)
The 4 subtypes
Dominant
Some people are obvious Dominants, like Barrack Obama or Donald Trump, or most talkshow-hosts. But you don't have to be dominant as a person just because you are the Dominant subtype. Sometimes they seem introverted or shy. The main thing is that they occupy the D functions. Very attached to the environment and people. There is a sense of dynamism.
Sometimes a relaxed D will seem like a H, because of the connectivity-dichotomy.
D has the ability of getting attention to themselves by just being in a room. They are the most present. I think this is one of the secrets of leadership. By seeming so present they get the attention of others and they become the natural leaders. D:s often lead, and they do it naturally, so you almost don't notice it, even when they are bad at it on the intellectual side.
D is obviously the best subtype when it comes to surviving in society and work.
The random D you meet will be a normal, outgoing, social person. That's the impression. The name "Dominant" should be understood in relation to the other subtypes, not as a absolute description.
Creative
These can be hard to type (by main type)
It just feels so obvious that the H is their best partner. C behaves often in a random way. Can be sensitive. Can be aware of things that others don't see.
In extreme cases the C can be criminal or borderline criminal. One young C-SEI woman went to bars "to provoke people into fights".
C seems to express everything. If they have psychological problems these will be expressed too. But being C is not the same as having ADHD.
Normalizing
The N needs a steady job or a community where they can be productive. If they are badly socialized they can become totally lost, because they aren't that good at working for themselves. They can work alone, but there is a need for a social context, that someone (a boss etc.) is expecting someting.
N can build up a tremendous bank of knowledge (Noam Chomsky, N-LII)
Some N:s have problems in their social life, dating etc. The trick is to find D:s and then just be oneself around them.
N is very common. Most people you meet on the street are usually N or D
Harmonizing
Can be difficult to figure out as a person. They seem to make an effort to follow along or be nice, and they are good at this (almost too good), but sometimes their own uncomfortability shines through. Sometimes the H seems to have a feeling of superiority. Use of functions seems to be "spread out".
The H person can sometimes require more time to develop into an adult. On the other hand, their flexibility sometimes compensates for this. In those cases they can be good at taking on new challanges and responsibilities.
H is a good subtype when there is a need for escapism, to compensate for unlived life. Old people seem to gravitate towards H. (This could be an exaggeration.)
Look at the eyes!
The connecting/ignoring dichotomy can be seen in the eyes. D and H subtypes have more sensitive, soft, dynamic eyes. C and N eyes seem more static, dry, insensitive. Hard to put this into words, though. This is one of the reasons why I sometimes confuse N/C or H/D at first glance.
Harmonizing and Creative and Art
H and C are over-represented among artists. You also find D artists but not so many N.
DCNH and main type functions
When DCNH talks about strengthened function it means regardless of the position in model A. It's like a shallow, expressive use of the information. That's why it doesn't really mean anything to ask how for example a H-LIE can have developed Si, since it is not primarily connected to position in model A. However...
...there is this interesting connection between subtype and main type function. There is not much information on it but it is pretty obvious that it exists. I goes like this:
D (Fe, Te) +base function emphasis
C (Ne, Se) +creative function
N (Ti, Fi) +role
H (Si, Ni) +PoLR
For example: C-SLE has a strong emphasis on creative Ti (but also the randomness of the creative function). D-ESI has a strong emphasis on base Fi
I seems quite natural that the D as the most dominant also has strong base function. Or that C uses creative function alot. But it is a mystery why this is so. I think that the answer is that the subtypes have developed through a real need for specialized work or action. Because dominance/leading works best if you are not only highly aware of Fe, Te but at the same time also go into base function mode, this became a fixed mode of being.
This emphasis on different functions sometimes creates the impression that the person is another type. Especially Normalizers can seem like their super-ego type. N-ESI emulates LII, and N-SEI emulates ILI etc. In the case of normalizing this usually is seen at work. When relaxing the main type shows itself again.
This gets stronger the stronger the need for adaption is in the person. ESI can benefit very much from "being LII" in work and studies.
One can make the following chart based on this:
D - seems like the identical type
C - seems like the mirror type
N - seems like the superego type
H - seems like the conflicting type
This tendency is probably the weakest in H. The other three are easier to observe.
Example of D-SEI. Charming and laughing. Telling a random story, while picking up the phone to call some friends to join her for sushi. At the same time an underlaying strong connection to impressions around her, ever-changing. "Oh look at my hands, are they the same color?". Constant connection to impression not just as an outer fact but as occupying a psychic space.
By observing this over time one can clearly see that DCNH functions are a different thing than the main type functions. The main type functions (for example Si in SEI) seem to be spinning "under the hood" whereas the DCNH functions are on the surface (for example Fe&Te in D). This way mistypings can be avoided.
8 subtypes
Just taking DCNH one step further, but not always possible to make the distinction, because they are "blurred".
Romantic attraction gets more intense if there also is a match on 8-subtype level. Te-Dominant matches not just with any Normalizer, but specifically with Fi-Normalizer. One could even claim that Fi-Normalizer + Fe-Dominant are slightly incompatible, and so on.
Subtype change
This is a difficult subject. Gulenko says it's possible, and it probably is. The challange is to bring about a permanent change in subtype. Temporary shallow change is easier and is experiences when we work intensively in a new situation that requires a totally new approach. One could also ask oneself whether it is desirable to change subtype at all, because it's easier to continue working in the same way as before.
I'm not so sure how it would happen but it has been said that it probably requires both inner and outer work. It might be connected to life circumstances that we cannot control very much.
I don't have many examples but here are some:
- The king of Sweden, Carl XVI Gustaf, is probably an C-ESI who has gravitated towards N-ESI, which he is today. One can see this in old videos of him, where he is younger and also from knowing something about his life. His wife is Harmonizing.
- Steve Jobs, C-LIE, who seemes more like D at the end of his life. Or does he? Maybe there was a slight tendency towards D as a result of his position in Apple. I think Gulenko has mention Jobs as an example somewhere.
- Carl Jung, C-LII, but at the end of his life, from when we have videos of him, he actually seems like all subtypes. He is a rare case, actually he is a bad example of DCNH because of his unusually high level of integration.
Subtype change seems to happen towards adjacent subtypes. C can change to N or D etc. They seem to be close to one another. I don't know the theory behind this.
The subtype of the person you are with at the moment can also influence you so you start gravitating slightly into the direction of the dual subtype of that person.
Famous people:
Dominant: Ellen Degeneres, Doctor Phil, Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, David Hasselhoff, Princess Victoria of Sweden, Linus Torvalds, Katy Perry, Li Andersson (Finnish politician)
Creative: Jaques Derrida, Russell Brand, Roman Polanski, Gordon Ramsay, Björk Gudmundsdottir, Sasha Baron Coen, Mick Jagger, Slavoy Zizek, Carl Jung, Whitney Houston, Dalai Lama, Marie-Louise von Franz (Jungian analyst), W. A. Mozart, Matti Nykänen (Finnish former ski jumper)
Normalizing: Melanie Trump, Noam Chomsky, Hillary Clinton, Chris Hedges, Rick "the Socionist", Viktor Gulenko, Arvi Lind (Finnish news presenter)
Harmonizing: Michael Jackson, Barbara Streisand, Arvo Pärt, Yoko Ono, Lisa Mitchell, Queen Silvia of Sweden, George Michael, Emanuelle Seigner, Paul Auster, Jukka-Pekka Saraste (Finnish conductor)
↧
↧
Member Questionnaire (Muddy)
I was downloading something on my computer and I got bored so I filled out one of these again to pass the time. I'm not looking for any serious typing from this but opinions are still welcome.
Member Questionnaire 1 (Muddy)
What is beauty? What is love?Member Questionnaire 1 (Muddy)
I really don't have much of opinion. Objectively speaking, love is the feeling we get from hormones like oxytocin. When you ask me what beauty is I just think about pleasant landscapes and attractive women, not much else.
What are your most important values?
Resisting control and fighting back against people who try to hold you down from your potential. People who exploit and put other people down ought to be fought against to the maximum level.
Do you have any sort of spiritual/religious beliefs, and why do you hold (or don't) those beliefs in the first place?
No, I don't find any religious beliefs out there to have any strong factual basis.
Opinion on war and militaries? What is power to you? I think war and battle is a necessary means of unleashing our true inner desires that Western Culture tries to suppress in the name of keeping the population complacent and controllable. Peaceful protesting isn't going to shit against people like Putin, Erdogan and all these corporate overlords in the US. The only solution to get rid of assholes like to that is overthrow them through force, though peaceful movements might work with more agreeable leaders. I don't care about power in the sense of using people since that is the very thing I despise when people to to do it to me.
What have you had long conversations about? What are your interests? Why?
Not really worth noting that I can think of. Only thing that comes to me when is talking to my dad about all the things he witnessed when he was still around.
Interested in health/medicine as a conversation topic? Are you focused on your body?
Moderately I suppose. I open to any tips and tricks to improve my health, but it isn't the main thing I discuss typically. I am conscious enough of my body to get myself to exercise and I do keep mind of what I eat but that is about it.
What do you think of daily chores?
Do only what is vital and screw the rest.
Books or films you liked? Recently read/watched or otherwise. Examples welcome.
I watched Logan recently and thought it was really good. Did not expect that level of grit from a Marvel movie. I've also been watching the Iron Fist and I like it.
What has made you cry? What has made you smile? Why?
Nothing recent that I can note of. Just the usual things like people dying or watching something funny.
Where do you feel: at one with the environment/a sense of belonging?
The natural world I suppose. I would love to live in world where my only concern is basic primitive survival rather then all this crap about getting a career and being a successful person.
What have people seen as your weaknesses? What do you dislike about yourself?
I don't communicate with others very much. I dislike myself for the amount of times I've let people walk over me without doing something about it.
What have people seen as your strengths? What do you like about yourself?
I'm unrelenting when comes to getting the few things that I desire. I don't pay much attention to the established ways of doing things and it often gives me an edge in escaping dead ends.
In what areas of your life would you like help?
The only thing I really want from other people is a good mood and positive, friendly energy. I could also use some help in finding some worthwhile hobbies and activities I suppose.
Ever feel stuck in a rut? If yes, describe the causes and your reaction to it.
Often times yes. I often think about how I grew up in a relatively poor and dysfunctional family and how it's hurt my chances to do anything exciting in life. I'm ever working on trying to escape my circumstances.
What qualities do you most like and dislike in other people? What types do you get along with?
What I above about having positive energy.
How do you feel about romance/sex? What qualities do you want in a partner?
It is something I long for. I constantly watch other people get it on with jealously and I feel regret that I haven't made any effort to acquaint myself with the opposite sex in my teens. The only main things that matter to me in a partner is physical attractiveness and a pleasant personality.
If you were to raise a child, what would be your main concerns, what measures would you take, and why?
That they would survive lol. I'm not having children and if I do I won't be taking care of them.
A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward and outward reaction?
Mild Irritation, inner and out.
Describe your relationship to society. How do you see people as a whole? What do you consider a prevalent social problem? Name one.
I don't have much to do with. I just do what benefits me and forget about all the rest.
How do you choose your friends and how do you behave around them?
I don't really "choose" friends, to me it is more about being about to naturally connect with someone and seeing eye to eye on things. I act low key.
How do you behave around strangers?
I simply answer any questions they might have and continue with my business.
↧
Enneagram type 9: Dysthymia and chronic apathy
Is this common for 9s to feel like they should be doing something from the outside: being productive, working, meeting goals, but remaining indifferent and uncommitted to any of it deep inside? If so, how do 9s get over this state? There are many 9s who seem to be doing fine. On 9 forums there are many posts like this one where some report pervasive struggles with apathy:
Hey guys, I'm an INTP enneagram 9w1 and I'm trying to figure out what to do/what direction my life should go. I've been depressed for a while, but I've been on prozac lately and feel I have more energy so I should use this before I slip back down the slippery slope.
I feel like I should be doing something with my life, something productive, but I can't find interest in anything. The only things I find barely enjoyable and just chilling with friends and smoking weed. I have no sense of enjoyment from learning about things that I will never use or honestly just learning things in general right now. I can't seem to figure out a way to be emotionally impacted enough by my values to actually do work.
I feel like I need to do things that are productive because I feel like I will never find a partner in life if I am just a lazy person who does nothing every day. D&D is fun, as it seems like a total Ne and Ti thing depending on what the INTP is going for.(also have questioned being an INTP for being an ISTP) I also enjoy pickleball, but I haven't done either of these in a while because my energy is so low and my body aches.
I don't ever remember if I ever had a love of learning for learnings sake(which is really a main signifier between INTP and ISTP I feel), but I would like to at least get some sense of enjoyment from things again. Even relaxing the fun is taken from me because I'm constantly reminded of how I am doing nothing productive and thus will never be in a relationship. Also if I'm not doing productive things or learning than the INTP is basically a logical robot who has little to say and is boring. Sure the Ne sometimes picks up slack, but that is short term and makes me feel like if I am not constantly coming up with creative stuff to challenge others thoughts, or being funny, that I am terribly dull and nobody wants to actually spend time with me. I always do these unproductive things because when all of the stuff gives me little/no enjoyment, I might as well do the ones that take the least effort.
I can hang out with people and go about my daily activities fine, but none of it is productive and none of it impacts me on a deeper emotional level. It just feels like I'll never be able to find a passion that gives me drive or a sense of purpose/meaning.
Am I just stuck in unhealthy thinking or what is going on here(other than depression).
In turn, a translation from the Greek “a-chedia” (no care), accidia refers to a laziness of the psyche and of the spirit, rather than a tendency to inaction, and so does “indolence” in the context of this book. Such spiritual laziness may be spoken of in terms of ... a deafening to the spirit and a loss of the sense of being to the point of not even knowing the difference—a spiritual coarsening. Psychologically, accidia manifests as a loss of interiority, a refusal to see, and a resistance to change.
The combination of loss of interiority and the resigned and abnegated character that goes along with it, results in a syndrome of a good hearted, comfortable “earthiness” that may be exaggerated to the point of literalness and narrowness.
We could say that the extreme extroversion of enneatype 9 not only has a constitutional root, but that constitution serves as a point of support for the defensive evasion of interiority. Arietti has drawn a distinction between two main types of depression, each supported by a different type of personality: The “claiming depression” (our envy type 4) and the self-blaming type, “where the main emphasis is on self-accusation and self-depreciation.”
The same trait of psychological inertia may be thought to underlie an excessive attachment to the familiar, to the group norms or “how things are done.” Robotization, of course, can be seen as a consequence of loss of interiority, of alienation from self. On the whole we are struck by the paradox that this most painstaking and long suffering way of being in the world is rooted in a passion for comfort: a psychological comfort purchased at such high price that, as intimated above, bioenergetics practitioners brand enneatype 9 individuals as “masochistic.”
Quote:
Hey guys, I'm an INTP enneagram 9w1 and I'm trying to figure out what to do/what direction my life should go. I've been depressed for a while, but I've been on prozac lately and feel I have more energy so I should use this before I slip back down the slippery slope.
I feel like I should be doing something with my life, something productive, but I can't find interest in anything. The only things I find barely enjoyable and just chilling with friends and smoking weed. I have no sense of enjoyment from learning about things that I will never use or honestly just learning things in general right now. I can't seem to figure out a way to be emotionally impacted enough by my values to actually do work.
I feel like I need to do things that are productive because I feel like I will never find a partner in life if I am just a lazy person who does nothing every day. D&D is fun, as it seems like a total Ne and Ti thing depending on what the INTP is going for.(also have questioned being an INTP for being an ISTP) I also enjoy pickleball, but I haven't done either of these in a while because my energy is so low and my body aches.
I don't ever remember if I ever had a love of learning for learnings sake(which is really a main signifier between INTP and ISTP I feel), but I would like to at least get some sense of enjoyment from things again. Even relaxing the fun is taken from me because I'm constantly reminded of how I am doing nothing productive and thus will never be in a relationship. Also if I'm not doing productive things or learning than the INTP is basically a logical robot who has little to say and is boring. Sure the Ne sometimes picks up slack, but that is short term and makes me feel like if I am not constantly coming up with creative stuff to challenge others thoughts, or being funny, that I am terribly dull and nobody wants to actually spend time with me. I always do these unproductive things because when all of the stuff gives me little/no enjoyment, I might as well do the ones that take the least effort.
I can hang out with people and go about my daily activities fine, but none of it is productive and none of it impacts me on a deeper emotional level. It just feels like I'll never be able to find a passion that gives me drive or a sense of purpose/meaning.
Am I just stuck in unhealthy thinking or what is going on here(other than depression).
Quote:
In turn, a translation from the Greek “a-chedia” (no care), accidia refers to a laziness of the psyche and of the spirit, rather than a tendency to inaction, and so does “indolence” in the context of this book. Such spiritual laziness may be spoken of in terms of ... a deafening to the spirit and a loss of the sense of being to the point of not even knowing the difference—a spiritual coarsening. Psychologically, accidia manifests as a loss of interiority, a refusal to see, and a resistance to change.
The combination of loss of interiority and the resigned and abnegated character that goes along with it, results in a syndrome of a good hearted, comfortable “earthiness” that may be exaggerated to the point of literalness and narrowness.
We could say that the extreme extroversion of enneatype 9 not only has a constitutional root, but that constitution serves as a point of support for the defensive evasion of interiority. Arietti has drawn a distinction between two main types of depression, each supported by a different type of personality: The “claiming depression” (our envy type 4) and the self-blaming type, “where the main emphasis is on self-accusation and self-depreciation.”
The same trait of psychological inertia may be thought to underlie an excessive attachment to the familiar, to the group norms or “how things are done.” Robotization, of course, can be seen as a consequence of loss of interiority, of alienation from self. On the whole we are struck by the paradox that this most painstaking and long suffering way of being in the world is rooted in a passion for comfort: a psychological comfort purchased at such high price that, as intimated above, bioenergetics practitioners brand enneatype 9 individuals as “masochistic.”
↧
Story of Substance addiction and recovery for Enneagram type 9
An interesting story of 9 in addiction recovery I've found while doing some research into enneagram types. I have no questions in particular, still trying to sink it in, unless someone else wants to discuss this topic.
http://www.ninepointsmagazine.org/ty...ccs-ladc-ccpc/
Problem is, this ‘I-protect-myself-by-disappearing’ phenomena is the exact, precise thing that calls his addiction to him, wakes the slithering snake up, because in the fog of this dream undigested and unrecognized emotional disturbance located in his real, lived life, located in the interior of his being—fear, anger, shame, vulnerability, powerlessness—can only be held at bay outside of his awareness for just so long before it merges with the vampire force of his addiction, and wakes it up such that suddenly, out of the blue, three years sober, the Nine finds himself drinking himself to death not knowing how he picked up the booze in the dreary alcohol aisle of Shop N’ Save. How did that happen? I don’t even remember picking the bottle up! Truth is he was mesmerized watching a euphoric-recall video of his addiction life (all the good parts, that is) that crept into his mind-stream in the midst of his fog of numbness, and unwittingly seduced him, saying, “Time to drink, time to shoot up, then you’ll feel relaxed and at peace; then you will feel as if you are home.” As the Type Nine later describes it, “Entering my thought stream like an old friend, erasing all memory of the terror and horror that awaits, I sipped on the euphoric recall of past drinking and drugging experiences and down I went, into the forgotten abyss of my repetitious suffering. And weirdly it felt good to sink into annihilation, like dropping into the arms of an old friend. How can hopelessness feel good? How weird is that?” It is a song, a hypnotic movie, a videotape that is always willing to meet him, that seeks him out.
So the work is cut out for the Nine, from the standpoint that he has been residing, hibernating, building a secret garden of pleasure and comfort in his imagination while his “lived life” where real family members have lost faith in him, where his children grieve deeply for him, where his contact with reality has been avoided by the next moment of shooting up with heroin or dousing his life force with other painkillers like alcohol, appears as something unreal, a fantasy. Everything has been reversed. His real thoughts and real suffering that brought him into addiction treatment feel like ‘unreal’ thoughts, dreamlike thoughts having no substance or capacity to ‘touch’ him. His imaginary life where pleasurable scenes and euphoric recall images of all his fun moments drinking and drugging play like a nonstop movie in his imagination—these feel real to him. (An example of this dream world addiction is found in the movie Requiem for Dream, most especially in the role played by Ellen Burstyn. Her imagination becomes what she experiences as ‘real.’)
He has learned to fix his attention here on his imagined life, to mistake this fantasy safe-zone, imagination-world as the ‘real,’ where he is anesthetized from his life-suffering until he can’t avoid it. Take the drugs away, drugs that fuel the inflamed imagination-retreat he has unwittingly created for himself, and he is left with no defenses except his capacity to withdraw, to pull an invisibility cloak over himself, and simply hunker down in hiding mode. And in that moment he is gripped by terror, the terror that he is unprotected and could die, simply by being here. The terror that what he imagined as real is nothing but. It is at this perilous point of awareness—in the cradle of emptiness—seeing that he sunk into a snake infested world of illusion—recovery begins. From this tender and most vulnerable place, those around him must be his anchor of reality until he begins to make friends with reality. (Fours also struggle with this imagination disease.)
In the first weeks of recovery when discomfort arises, dragons of annihilation at every turn, his suffering will arise unedited. His defenses will not work. Either he cracks open into reality, or he dives back into familiar suffering. It will take a monumental effort for him to simply say out loud what he is experiencing, and to stay with the realizations (Surely this is difficult for everyone!). Remember, his internal survivor script is to do nothing that causes conflict or suffering for others, and nothing that allows him to be seen. And yet, here on this cliff of death where he dangles off the overhang, he must be seen, must be heard, cannot stay mute. Yet the Inner Critic voice will screech through his brain, “You are nobody special and you better keep it that way.” When he starts to speak up and tell his truth, his Inner-Critic-fire-breathing-dragon will blare, “Who do you think you are? You’re taking up the breathing space of others simply by being here. Shut up!” And often he will. Or, as Bill-from-Chicago would say, “When feelings arise I feel so incredibly tired I could fall asleep on the spot. All energy drains from my being. I instantly forget what I was feeling or thinking. I go blank.”
His habit of retreating into non-reality awareness is a powerful magnet as is his habit of blurring all things of discomfort into unrecognizability. Feelings? What feelings?
Marty says it this way:
“When I was in early recovery and you asked me what I was feeling I felt like I looked down into a deep well of foggy murkiness. I was upset, was feeling something, but the minute you asked me about it, it immediately became so indistinct and unclear, would fog up into a cloud of confusion, that mostly I’d say, ‘I have no idea.’ And I meant it. In actuality, I felt a vague formless discontent that if I rested in it too long, would suddenly ascend from this fog in the form of unnamed anxiety, like a snake slithering up my spine. I’d immediately shut down and slip into my delusion-space where comforting dreams could settle me down. Learning to feel inner distinctions around my feelings took a long damn time. My first task was to simply stay sober, keep showing up, and find someone to lean on, who could guide me, because I felt like I had no ground underneath me, and no inner sense of knowing what was real. My feelings and wants and needs, well, ask me about this and you’re asking me to speak a foreign language. I simply had to hang on with faith that at some point I’d come out of the fog. I didn’t realize I was in a fog until I started to get glimpses of real feelings. I needed my counselor, my recovery friends, to teach me to identify my feelings. Often they’d see and sense that I was sad and they’d note it for me, bringing my attention to my voice, saying, “You sound so sad. I hear it in your voice. Can you hear yourself as you speak?” Or bringing attention to my facial expression, they’d say, “Your eyes are moistening. You look sad. Can you feel sadness in your face, or your throat, or your chest? What do you notice?” I had to practice attuning to these details, sensing into them, inch my inch, allowing myself to open to what was going on inside me. It was extremely weird and difficult because I had so many buffers built in to keep my emotional experience on a very thin band of existence. No highs, no lows, just a gray zone that kept me safe, so I thought. Widening that band of feeling experience, well, I needed people to notice and teach me the language, teach me how to identify what was going on inside me. Slowly I learned to lean into the terror that I was going to be abandoned if I felt anything. Little by little I learned that it is safe to be here as I am, with the feelings I’m experiencing, with the desires I possess.
http://www.ninepointsmagazine.org/ty...ccs-ladc-ccpc/
Problem is, this ‘I-protect-myself-by-disappearing’ phenomena is the exact, precise thing that calls his addiction to him, wakes the slithering snake up, because in the fog of this dream undigested and unrecognized emotional disturbance located in his real, lived life, located in the interior of his being—fear, anger, shame, vulnerability, powerlessness—can only be held at bay outside of his awareness for just so long before it merges with the vampire force of his addiction, and wakes it up such that suddenly, out of the blue, three years sober, the Nine finds himself drinking himself to death not knowing how he picked up the booze in the dreary alcohol aisle of Shop N’ Save. How did that happen? I don’t even remember picking the bottle up! Truth is he was mesmerized watching a euphoric-recall video of his addiction life (all the good parts, that is) that crept into his mind-stream in the midst of his fog of numbness, and unwittingly seduced him, saying, “Time to drink, time to shoot up, then you’ll feel relaxed and at peace; then you will feel as if you are home.” As the Type Nine later describes it, “Entering my thought stream like an old friend, erasing all memory of the terror and horror that awaits, I sipped on the euphoric recall of past drinking and drugging experiences and down I went, into the forgotten abyss of my repetitious suffering. And weirdly it felt good to sink into annihilation, like dropping into the arms of an old friend. How can hopelessness feel good? How weird is that?” It is a song, a hypnotic movie, a videotape that is always willing to meet him, that seeks him out.
So the work is cut out for the Nine, from the standpoint that he has been residing, hibernating, building a secret garden of pleasure and comfort in his imagination while his “lived life” where real family members have lost faith in him, where his children grieve deeply for him, where his contact with reality has been avoided by the next moment of shooting up with heroin or dousing his life force with other painkillers like alcohol, appears as something unreal, a fantasy. Everything has been reversed. His real thoughts and real suffering that brought him into addiction treatment feel like ‘unreal’ thoughts, dreamlike thoughts having no substance or capacity to ‘touch’ him. His imaginary life where pleasurable scenes and euphoric recall images of all his fun moments drinking and drugging play like a nonstop movie in his imagination—these feel real to him. (An example of this dream world addiction is found in the movie Requiem for Dream, most especially in the role played by Ellen Burstyn. Her imagination becomes what she experiences as ‘real.’)
He has learned to fix his attention here on his imagined life, to mistake this fantasy safe-zone, imagination-world as the ‘real,’ where he is anesthetized from his life-suffering until he can’t avoid it. Take the drugs away, drugs that fuel the inflamed imagination-retreat he has unwittingly created for himself, and he is left with no defenses except his capacity to withdraw, to pull an invisibility cloak over himself, and simply hunker down in hiding mode. And in that moment he is gripped by terror, the terror that he is unprotected and could die, simply by being here. The terror that what he imagined as real is nothing but. It is at this perilous point of awareness—in the cradle of emptiness—seeing that he sunk into a snake infested world of illusion—recovery begins. From this tender and most vulnerable place, those around him must be his anchor of reality until he begins to make friends with reality. (Fours also struggle with this imagination disease.)
In the first weeks of recovery when discomfort arises, dragons of annihilation at every turn, his suffering will arise unedited. His defenses will not work. Either he cracks open into reality, or he dives back into familiar suffering. It will take a monumental effort for him to simply say out loud what he is experiencing, and to stay with the realizations (Surely this is difficult for everyone!). Remember, his internal survivor script is to do nothing that causes conflict or suffering for others, and nothing that allows him to be seen. And yet, here on this cliff of death where he dangles off the overhang, he must be seen, must be heard, cannot stay mute. Yet the Inner Critic voice will screech through his brain, “You are nobody special and you better keep it that way.” When he starts to speak up and tell his truth, his Inner-Critic-fire-breathing-dragon will blare, “Who do you think you are? You’re taking up the breathing space of others simply by being here. Shut up!” And often he will. Or, as Bill-from-Chicago would say, “When feelings arise I feel so incredibly tired I could fall asleep on the spot. All energy drains from my being. I instantly forget what I was feeling or thinking. I go blank.”
His habit of retreating into non-reality awareness is a powerful magnet as is his habit of blurring all things of discomfort into unrecognizability. Feelings? What feelings?
Marty says it this way:
“When I was in early recovery and you asked me what I was feeling I felt like I looked down into a deep well of foggy murkiness. I was upset, was feeling something, but the minute you asked me about it, it immediately became so indistinct and unclear, would fog up into a cloud of confusion, that mostly I’d say, ‘I have no idea.’ And I meant it. In actuality, I felt a vague formless discontent that if I rested in it too long, would suddenly ascend from this fog in the form of unnamed anxiety, like a snake slithering up my spine. I’d immediately shut down and slip into my delusion-space where comforting dreams could settle me down. Learning to feel inner distinctions around my feelings took a long damn time. My first task was to simply stay sober, keep showing up, and find someone to lean on, who could guide me, because I felt like I had no ground underneath me, and no inner sense of knowing what was real. My feelings and wants and needs, well, ask me about this and you’re asking me to speak a foreign language. I simply had to hang on with faith that at some point I’d come out of the fog. I didn’t realize I was in a fog until I started to get glimpses of real feelings. I needed my counselor, my recovery friends, to teach me to identify my feelings. Often they’d see and sense that I was sad and they’d note it for me, bringing my attention to my voice, saying, “You sound so sad. I hear it in your voice. Can you hear yourself as you speak?” Or bringing attention to my facial expression, they’d say, “Your eyes are moistening. You look sad. Can you feel sadness in your face, or your throat, or your chest? What do you notice?” I had to practice attuning to these details, sensing into them, inch my inch, allowing myself to open to what was going on inside me. It was extremely weird and difficult because I had so many buffers built in to keep my emotional experience on a very thin band of existence. No highs, no lows, just a gray zone that kept me safe, so I thought. Widening that band of feeling experience, well, I needed people to notice and teach me the language, teach me how to identify what was going on inside me. Slowly I learned to lean into the terror that I was going to be abandoned if I felt anything. Little by little I learned that it is safe to be here as I am, with the feelings I’m experiencing, with the desires I possess.
↧
The "Gray Rock" Method
Has anyone heard of this? This is supposed to be a great way for dealing with any abusers, stalkers, narcissists, and sociopaths who try to do anything possible to keep in your center of attention and keep pulling your strings. This was shared in one of psychology support groups for a woman whose boyfriend sent her a diamond ring, asking her to marry on the same month and close to the date that his other girlfriend is expected to be delivering his baby.
"When dealing with malignant narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, borderlines, drama queens, stalkers and other emotional vampires, it’s commonly advised that no response is the best response to unwanted attention. This is often true and No Contact (the avoidance of all communication) should be used whenever possible.
There are some situations however, when No Contact is not feasible, as in when you share child custody with a psychopath. As another example, if you are being stalked by an ex, a restraining order can infuriate the unwanted suitor, and refusing to respond to him or her is seen as an insult. They might become convinced that they can MAKE you respond and in that way satiate their need for power over you.
Furthermore, many of us have tried to end a relationship with a psychopath several times, only to take them back, each time. They turned on the pity ploy and the charm, and because we didn’t understand that this is what a psychopath does, we fell for their promises to change. They know all of our emotional hooks. For them, it’s easy and fun to lure us back by appealing to our emotions. But a psychopath can’t change. In fact, when you leave a psychopath, he becomes determined to punish you even more severely for thinking you could be autonomous. ..."
https://lovefraud.com/the-gray-rock-...h-psychopaths/
"When dealing with malignant narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, borderlines, drama queens, stalkers and other emotional vampires, it’s commonly advised that no response is the best response to unwanted attention. This is often true and No Contact (the avoidance of all communication) should be used whenever possible.
There are some situations however, when No Contact is not feasible, as in when you share child custody with a psychopath. As another example, if you are being stalked by an ex, a restraining order can infuriate the unwanted suitor, and refusing to respond to him or her is seen as an insult. They might become convinced that they can MAKE you respond and in that way satiate their need for power over you.
Furthermore, many of us have tried to end a relationship with a psychopath several times, only to take them back, each time. They turned on the pity ploy and the charm, and because we didn’t understand that this is what a psychopath does, we fell for their promises to change. They know all of our emotional hooks. For them, it’s easy and fun to lure us back by appealing to our emotions. But a psychopath can’t change. In fact, when you leave a psychopath, he becomes determined to punish you even more severely for thinking you could be autonomous. ..."
https://lovefraud.com/the-gray-rock-...h-psychopaths/
↧
↧
For INTPs, INTJs, ISTPs, ISTJs ... 15 Ways Youre Always At Fault For Being The Less Emotional Partner
"When you’re not an emotional person, having healthy, balanced relationships can be challenging.
You don’t know how to express your feelings with any real coherence and you don’t want to talk about the deep layers of your “profound” romance. (Ick.) It’s just not appealing to you.
Your partner, the more sensitive of your twosome, may find these seeming disinterests to be a problem.
Your lack of outward emotion or evident fiery passion might plant seeds of insecurity, causing him or her to be constantly in a state of emotional uproar, which only makes you all the more confused.
Your partner thinks you don’t care and you don’t know what you can possibly do to prove otherwise.
It isn’t that you don’t love this person, you do. You just don’t understand why you need to be constantly up each other’s butts in order to show or prove that.
You’re in this relationship, aren’t you? Isn’t that enough validation that you, in fact, want to be with this person?
You don’t like fighting and you have no patience for stupidity. You’re direct.
You’re not a Goddamn robot; you’re just not mushy, touchy or particularly feely. You’re logical and you do things with a purpose."
http://elitedaily.com/dating/15-thin...onship/941399/
↧
ISTjs and following rules, order, regulations: Socionics vs. the reality
I wanted to create a separate topic for this discussion since I've seen it come up several times without being fully studied and addressed. A major problem that I've noticed in many of socionics descriptions of (Ti,Se) type called LSI is that LSIs are described to be rule-followers who uphold rules, laws, order, and regulations above anything else, as the social mission of this type according to Stratievskaya.
I'm always surprised to read such descriptions of ISTjs how they are supposed to love rules, order, and regulations, when the socionics "benchmark" for LSI is Joseph Stalin - the man who went against the existing order, against every conceivable rule, against the regulations of his era, who defied the authorities and the government, a man who created anarchy and unrest in his country instead of keeping order, and used the ensuing chaos to make himself the head and chief of his country.
The question is: Is there something fundamentally wrong with the way socionics describes ISTjs, their behavior, in everyday life as well as how they go about achieving positions of power? On this very forum I've seen some posters quote these LSI profiles verbatim, but even those few members who self-type as LSI don't seem to agree with this. Doesn't this seem problematic?
I'm always surprised to read such descriptions of ISTjs how they are supposed to love rules, order, and regulations, when the socionics "benchmark" for LSI is Joseph Stalin - the man who went against the existing order, against every conceivable rule, against the regulations of his era, who defied the authorities and the government, a man who created anarchy and unrest in his country instead of keeping order, and used the ensuing chaos to make himself the head and chief of his country.
The question is: Is there something fundamentally wrong with the way socionics describes ISTjs, their behavior, in everyday life as well as how they go about achieving positions of power? On this very forum I've seen some posters quote these LSI profiles verbatim, but even those few members who self-type as LSI don't seem to agree with this. Doesn't this seem problematic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by squark
![View Post]()
Yes, you're confused. LSIs don't love rules and regulations. Order is something entirely different. A law or a regulation tells you what to do and how to do it. This is why it falls under Te. The kind of "rules" that fall under Ti are more along the lines of organization and categorization. This belongs in this category, it doesn't belong in that one. This fits with this and that, but not with that.
↧
The SAPA Project Personality Test
This test gives 5 broad personality traits (Big 5) and 27 "narrow" traits (SPI). It's long but you can stop at it any point and proceed to the final page. The makers of this this test recommend answering 100 questions for an accurate Big 5 score and 200 questions for SPI score. With 25-questions per page, this makes for 4-8 pages before you ask for the results to get scored.
https://sapa-project.org/survey/start.php
![]()
https://sapa-project.org/survey/start.php
Your score on Agreeableness places you higher than 38% of previous participants in this survey.
Conscientiousness places you higher than 27% of previous participants in this survey.
Extraversion places you higher than 45% of previous participants in this survey.
Neuroticism places you higher than 50% of previous participants in this survey.
Openness places you higher than 68% of previous participants in this survey.
Based on the 6 responses you gave for the item types with norms (see above), your Cognition score was 69. This means that your score was higher than 97% of previous participants in this survey.Conscientiousness places you higher than 27% of previous participants in this survey.
Extraversion places you higher than 45% of previous participants in this survey.
Neuroticism places you higher than 50% of previous participants in this survey.
Openness places you higher than 68% of previous participants in this survey.
↧
Something You're Envious Of
Disclaimer: Not to be confused with being jealous which requires three parties and deals with loss, while envy only needs two and deals with lack. Envy is you (party one) wanting something (party two) you don't/can't have.
Ex.
I am envious of
- mad cooking skills (but I also find them super sexy, can't lie :love:) I try my best myself but... still :cry:
- Mister Spock's ability to reason, completely inaccessible to me
Makes sense?
![]()
Ex.
I am envious of
- mad cooking skills (but I also find them super sexy, can't lie :love:) I try my best myself but... still :cry:
- Mister Spock's ability to reason, completely inaccessible to me
Makes sense?
↧
↧
Attack on Titan characters
Here are my typings:
Eren Yeager : SEE
Mikasa Ackerman : ESI
Sasha Braus (potato girl) : IEE
Captain Levi : ILI
Armin Arlert : IEI
Hange Zoe : ILE (I like her alot surprisingly)
Jean Kirschtein : LSE
Marco Bott : EII
Grisha Yeager(Eren's father) : LII
Eren Yeager : SEE
Mikasa Ackerman : ESI
Sasha Braus (potato girl) : IEE
Captain Levi : ILI
Armin Arlert : IEI
Hange Zoe : ILE (I like her alot surprisingly)
Jean Kirschtein : LSE
Marco Bott : EII
Grisha Yeager(Eren's father) : LII
↧
Introduction--hello!
Hi all,
I am a confidently self-typed IEI-Fe who has been spending a lot of free time reading everything I could find on Socionics. I think I have run out of articles, books, etc. (in English that is). So, here I am, ready to continue learning :content:
I am a confidently self-typed IEI-Fe who has been spending a lot of free time reading everything I could find on Socionics. I think I have run out of articles, books, etc. (in English that is). So, here I am, ready to continue learning :content:
↧
K-pop gifs
This needs a place for collection.
This was so chaotic, I divided these by group/artist :lol:
BTS
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
Mamamoo
![]()
GOT7
![]()
2NE1
![]()
BIGBANG
![]()
![]()
Cheetah
![]()
![]()
![]()
EXO
![]()
![]()
![]()
Jessi
![]()
SHINee
![]()
This was so chaotic, I divided these by group/artist :lol:
BTS
Mamamoo
GOT7
2NE1
BIGBANG
Cheetah
EXO
Jessi
SHINee
↧
There is a higher order to socionics or personality
And it's genetic, I see it in families, too bad we have no means to theorize about it
There's purpose to life... But what is it is the question
I have a twin flame (whether or not that really exists), same name same type her family is identical in type to mine
There's purpose to life... But what is it is the question
I have a twin flame (whether or not that really exists), same name same type her family is identical in type to mine
↧
↧
Hello!
Hey everyone, just an ESFP passing by
↧
How to recognize an EIE
Okay so I recently discovered I might be an LSI-ti. This means that EIE would be my dual. To my malconcent I don't think I know any female ENFj's in real life, at least not typed ones by me. So I need help.
How do I discern female ENFj's from other females? Especially ESFp's, ESFj's and INFp's? :bashhead:
How do I discern female ENFj's from other females? Especially ESFp's, ESFj's and INFp's? :bashhead:
↧
LSI vs LII
I usually classify myself as LSI because LIIs are often portrayed as prissy geeks. And I've never quite fit in with the large circle of alphas I've grown up with.
But I just can't scratch the itch that might I might be LII. Something about Ne seems to resonate with me; at least how it is typically described.
But I dunno. Someone convince me.
But I just can't scratch the itch that might I might be LII. Something about Ne seems to resonate with me; at least how it is typically described.
But I dunno. Someone convince me.
↧